Interview with

Could you tell us please something about your family?

I was the oldest of four children. One brother and sister passed away very young, while
my youngest brother became the Sakya Trizin. My father never became the head of the
Sakya lineage; he passed away in the year of the Tiger (1950), at the age of 49. My
mother had passed away three years earlier, when I was 10. At that time my brother
was only three years old. From then on, my aunt, our mother's older sister, looked after
us. She took us to Ngor Monastery, south of Shigatse. There we met our root lama,
Ngawang Lodro Shenpen Nyima or briefly Tampa Rinpochey, and we received teachings.
We received the Path and Fruit teachings from him, both in the 'public' and 'private'
presentations. We had almost reached the end of the personal transmission of Path and
Fruit, when our root lama passed away. He was 75 years old. Another of his students,
Ngor Khangsar Shabdrung Rinpochey, took over from him and finished the teachings.
Later, Khangsar Shabdrung Rinpochey, Ngawang Lodro Tenzin Nyingpo, came to Sakya
and gave us another teachings, called the Collections of Sadhanas.

     While my brother was doing his Vajrakilaya retreat, monks from Kham came to
Sakya and requested Path and Fruit teachings from him. But as he was in retreat,
my aunt appointed me to give the three months transmission in the Lam-Dre Ngawang
Chodrak tradition. I was 18 years old.

When did you start to meditate?

When I was six, I did my first small meditations on Manjushri and Saraswati, accompanied
by a teacher, not alone. Then, when I was eight, I became a nun. When I was 10, I did a
one month Vajrapani retreat, also with a teacher. At the age of 17, I received the Path and
Fruit teachings, together with Sakya Trizin. After I completed a few retreats, including
that of Hevajra and other deities. Then I gave the Path and Fruit transmission for the
first time.

When did you come to exile?

In 1959, when I was 21, we escaped to India. I remained there from 1959 to 1971. First
we went to the American Missionary Refugee camp for Tibetans in Kalimpong. I tried
to learn English there, because we generally spoke Hindi. I was very shy, so I did not
speak a lot of English. Since I came to Canada, I have had a lot of practice - because I
have to.

     In 1962, I went to Shimla and worked there with Tibetan children in Tibetan nursery.
I worked as a nurse, changing diapers, fixing beds and serving food. But after nine months
I got sick, so I had to quit.

     Once we arrived in India, I decided to give up my robes. In 1964, my husband's
family, the Luding family, and my aunt arranged our marriage. After taking their
decision they asked us, and we both agreed. Although we knew each other quite well,
it was a prearranged marriage.

     We had five children: four sons and a daughter. My first son was born in 1965. My
daughter passed away, while three of my sons live with me in Canada. One, Shabdrung
Rinpochey, was born in 1967 and now lives in India. When we came to Canada in 1971,
my youngest son was just 10 months old.

Why did you decide to live in Canada?

Sakya Trizin and I had a old friend, a woman who was half French, half German. She
actually decided for me. She felt that my situation, bringing up five children in India,
was not so good. I thought that I was doing well, that I was very rich - but I guess she
thought that I was very poor. She asked me if I wanted to go to Canada. She knew
the Canadian Ambassador very well. She then talked to him, and he added my name
to the list of those being considered for resettlement. We first arrived in Alberta and
only later we moved to Vancouver. While my husband worked on a farm, feeding the
cattle, I was working in the house, cooking the whole day and feeding the kids - a
terrible experience because it never finished the whole day long.

Are there any differences between living in India and here?

It is much the same. There's no big difference. A lot of people say to me: 'You lost your
country, you must feel lonely and homesick.' I never had the feeling of loneliness and
of being homesick. I don't know why, I never had it. I never feel lonely. If you are alone,
you find something to read, or you do a meditation. We Tibetans did not have television.
Here, if you're lonely, you watch television. People here watch television like zombies.

Could you tell us something about your lineage, in particular the Khon lineage?

The Khon lineage originates not in our worldly realm. It comes from a heavenly realm.
Three sons came to our world from that realm. While the two older brothers returned
to the heavenly realm, the youngest one married the daughter of a raksa or harmful
spirit. Literally, the word Khon means 'against each other', or enemy. After the marriage
the raksa family and the Khon family fought against each other, which is why the Khons
became known as enemies of the harmful spirits.

     Sachen Kunga Nyingpo, Sonam Tsenmo, Rinchen Dakpa Gyaltsen, Sakya Pandita,
Drogon Chogyal Phakpa were the first lineage holders of the Khon. Then the lineage
was passed down until Wangdu Nyingpo and his four sons: Pema Dhondup Wangchuk
(we call him Pitu), Kunga Rinchen, Ngodrup Pompa and Kunga Gyaltsen, youngest of
the sons. Pitu and Kunga Gyaltsen together had one son, Dorje Rinchen, because they
shared the same wife.

     Dorje Rinchen became the Sakya Trizin, but did not have any children himself. He
was the Sakya government. This is when the two brothers who were both fathers of
Dorje Rinchen established the two houses of Sakya. The younger brother, Kunga
Rinchen, founded the Phuntsog Phodrang, while the older brother, Pitu, instituted the
Dolma Phodrang.

     From Pema Dhondup Wangchuk the Dolma Phodrang lineage passed to Tashi
Rinchen, Kunga Nyingpo, Tashi Trinley Rinchen, then to Kunga Rinchen who was
Sakya Trizin's and my father, and then to Sakya Trizin. On the Phuntsog Phodrang
side, the lineage was passed on from Kunga Rinchen to Kunga Sonam, then to
Samling Chiku Wangdu, Ngawang Thudob Wangchuk, to Jigdal Dagchen Sakya,
and he will pass it on to one of his five sons.

What does the bone and blood lineage mean?

We talk about these lineages only in relation to human beings. Religiously and spiritually
they have no meaning. The mothers' lineage is the blood lineage, while the bone lineage
refers to the father's side. In Tibet, when it came to marriage, it was important to observe
the bone lineage for seven generations, and the blood lineage for four generations. After
these generations you could marry. That is the only reason.

Compared to other traditions, what is different in the Sakyapa?

In Sakya, we talk about the two families, the Khon families. Inside these two families
and lineages, there are lamas of other lineages born into.

     For example, my brother, Sakya Trizin, is a reincarnation of the Nyingmapa lama
Abong Terton, from east Tibet. This has been recognized by the Nyingmapas very
clearly - there is no doubt about it. Before Abong Terton died, he told his students: "I
will die this year. Next year you should go to Sakya and look for newborn babies. I will
be there, and you will recognize me. But you cannot bring me back here. My duty in
eastern Tibet is done, and my future task will be in central Tibet, with the people there.
I will have to stay with their family. You cannot bring me back, but you can visit me.'
Abong Terton had three sons. While the middle son visited Sakya, he recognized his
father in my brother. At that time my brother was six years old; he was reciting all kinds
of prayers that he had not been taught, very much like Abong Terton.

     We Sakyas understood very well and do not doubt it. However our side thought he
was the reincarnation of my grandfather:

     In Sakya there was a Mahakala temple, facing south. It was rebuilt by my grandfather.
During the restoration, he left a small skylight open in the upper southwest corner, so that
light could enter the temple. When my brother was maybe seven or eight years old, he
visited the temple for the first time. Right away he asked: 'What happened to the window?
Where is the window?' 'Somehow somebody closed the window,' replied the old man
beside him, with tears in his eyes. The old man had known my grandfather and he knew
that once there was a window. That is why our side believes that Sakya Trizin is the
reincarnation of my grandfather's.

     Many people wonder: 'How is this possible? Two people reincarnated in one person?'
I think the great Nyingmapa lama, Abong Terton, was a Bodhisattva and my grandfather
was also a Bodhisattva. Their minds are equal. They have different forms, but basically
the Bodhisattva's essence is the same. So there are two Bodhisattvas and they can do
anything. This is what I believe. That is what happened in our family.

     If somebody is born into our family lineage, the former lineage of the reincarnation
may be lost and these reincarnations don't get their monastery. This is because for us
the family lineage is more important, it has priority. Our Khon lineage does not need
reincarnations. It is always passed down from father to son.

     The head of the Sakyapas alternates between the Dolma Phodrang and the Phuntsok
Phodrang. The responsibility moves back and forth, changing from generation to
generation. The previous Sakya Trizin was Jigdal Dagchen Rinpochey's father, and
before that it was our grandfather.

     Leadership of the Ngor Monastery, on the other hand, rotates among the four lamas
who were heads of the four households or labrangs every three years.

Do you know who your former incarnations were?

I do not know. People say different things, in different ways. Anyhow, people say that
they want to say; myself I really don't know. Somehow everybody is incarnated anyway.

Some people say that you are an emanation of Vajrayogini.

Yes, I know. A long time ago, after the five great Sakya teachers, one of the great
Sakyapa lamas had a sister. She was a very good nun and a practitioner. She also
was lineage-holder of the Path and Fruit. Her name was Jigmey Tenpai Nyima.
People say she was an emanation of Vajrayogini. So, since that time, some people
say that some of the daughters of the Khon family are emanations of Vajrayogini.
That's what they say. So somebody heard this and said that therefore I am an
emanation of Vajrayogini, but I do not think so. People can believe it if they want,
that's fine, it does not matter. But, people who take Hevajra and Vajrayogini
teachings from me, they have to believe in Vajradhara. Root lamas are Vajradhara.
Generally, everybody has this essence of mind. The nature of the mind is presently
concealed. Our defilements and the three poisons have covered this nature, so we
cannot see our own mind. The Bodhisattva is present in everybody, but defilements
and poisons have covered it up. Clear away those defilements and you become a
Bodhisattva. Basically the Bodhisattva essence is present in everybody. Everybody
has it, but you cannot see it. The same goes for saying some person is the emanation
of a deity.

Why are there so few female lamas?

I don't know. I guess that this is a female problem (laughs). I really don't know. In earlier
days, the Nyingmapas had a lot of female lamas, particularly in Kham. Now, after the
revolution, it has changed. Otherwise, traditionally, I could not have married. Once you
were born a woman in the Khon family, you would automatically become a nun. It was
your choice whether you took the vows and become a nun or not, but you had to wear
the robes. Then you would receive empowerments like Hevajra and Chakrasamvara,
and on those occasions you would take Vajrayana vows. In the Vajrayana vows there is
a kind of nun's vow included. These are serious vows and therefore you could not marry.

So once you were born as a woman into Khon family, you could not lead a worldly life?

No, you would always be learning, reciting and meditating. Some nuns were doing
handicrafts like sewing, knitting and beadwork and so on. These rules were not set
by the Tibetan government, but by our family.

From your point of view, why did Shugseb Jetsunma decide to reincarnate as a man?

The reason is personal. I think every human being has a different mind, and accordingly
has different ideas. I think it was her idea to come back as a man. I have heard that she
had a difficult life as a young girl. When she was on pilgrimage with her mother, a man
robbed her and tried to rape her. Consequently, I guess she thought that being a female
is hopeless. Not hopeless in the mind, but in the physical body - it is more difficult to
fight back, to defend yourself. That's why, I think, she wanted to come back as a man,
into a more comfortable and easy life. Something like that. I don't think she thought
women are bad and so she became a man.

Are there similarities and/or differences between the various traditions of Kachoma
(Vajrayogini)?

I think in the Gelugpa the Vajrayogini practice is very similar to ours, because it comes
from the Sakyas. Maybe there are different lamas with different sets of sadhanas,
different ways of teaching, some of them more detailed, but it come from Sakya, so it is
very much the same.

     The Kagyupa's Vajrayogini is actually not Vajrayogini. They call it Vajrayogini
nowadays, especially among Westerners, but in fact it is Vajravarahi. In Tibetan it
is called Dorje Phagmo, and not Naro Kacho. Therefore, the Kagyu practice is not
Vajrayogini.

Are they very different?

They are different, but both Vajravarahi and Vajrayogini, are Chakrasamvara tantric
practices and originally come from Naropa. Naro Kacho means that it comes from
Naropa.

His Holiness Sakya Trizin once said that he had to encourage you to teach.

Yes. In 1979, he was visiting the US, together with Dezhung Rinpochey, for the second
time. During his visit he was giving a talk in New York. After the talk, there was a
question/answer panel discussion. One woman asked: 'Why is it that in Tibetan Buddhism
all the teachers are men, and there were no women?' Then my brother said: 'No, we have
woman teachers too; one of them is my sister. She is hiding somewhere in Canada.'
That's what he said at the time. Then he came to visit me and his centre in Vancouver.
He did not press me, but he just said: 'If you teach in the West, it would be good.' That's
the only thing he said. At that time I was not teaching in the public, only privately. Some
people were interested in Tibetan language, others in meditation. One or two were
interested in empowerments; so I gave them small empowerments in my house. When my
brother came, he asked me to look after his centres. After my brother left, I went to
Sakya centres in Los Angeles, Minneapolis, Boston, and New York. Since then I visit,
the Sakya centres that my brother had set up in the West, once in a while. Whenever
these centres ask me to come, I go, and most of the time I do not talk a lot, but give
empowerments and instructions.

     When Sakya Trizin was back in India, I was invitied to Australia. He told me to go
there and teach. At that time, he gave me some reasons. First he said: 'In Tibet as an
ex-nun you would no longer teach.' This is because most of the teachings are given in
monasteries, by nuns and monks. 'So the lay people, would have no faith in you. Only
if you are a great, great, great lama, and you have a wife, would they have faith in you,
but mostly they don't. Traditionally it was like that in Tibet. But in the West,' my brother
said, 'almost all the practitioners are lay-people. You, a lay person, have a very similar
lifestyle to the people you teach. You have a household, a working position, and so when
you teach in the West, Western women can look at you and think: "If she can do it and
get enlightened, so of course we can do it and get enlightened too." It is beneficial for
you and it is beneficial for other beings.' That's what he said.

     I could not say no, because he is my root lama. I took a Path and Fruit teaching from
him in Benares in India. And I also took a Vajrayogini initiation in Rajpur from him,
together with my husband. So you cannot say no.

Could you give us an idea of your daily schedule?

Before I married, I used to get up very early. I did my practice and finished before
everybody else got up. After marriage I tried to get up around five - five thirty, and
finished before I went to work. These days I try to get up around four.

     After my practice I go to work between 7:30 and 8:30, and then I work for eight
hours. Then I come home and cook for the kids. My kids are very nice and helpful.

Do you see any differences between lifestyle in Tibet and in the West?

Of course there is a difference. Everything is different. For example, the kitchen is
different. To cook in Tibet, we needed a sheep or yak-skin bellows to make the fire.
Every morning we had to do that (pretends to pump the bellows). But here you turn
one knob and there is fire. Of course it is different.

Do you think therefore our values are different?

I don't know. I think it is the same; I think most people are of like nature. I think this
is generally true of people. But individually people have different values. Personally
I appreciate it more here, because it is an easier life and it is more comfortable (she
laughs). But it makes you more lazy too.

Is distraction here bigger?

Yes. Distraction is bigger here, of course.

Do you think it is more difficult to practice in the West?

That also varies according to the individual, because it is in each one's mind. Generally,
it is a little bit difficult here. But if your mind is stable, it does not matter. When I practice,
my mind is sometimes very stable, sometimes my mind goes all over the place. When I
have stable times, and my kids are playing music, I cannot see any difference. Whether
they play or don't, to me it is the same thing. I never have the feeling, 'It is too noisy,'
or something like that. So when there are noises (at that moment an airplane flies over)
you can turn them into a mantra like Om Mani Padme Hung. This is not difficult. But
people are not stable. That's why it is so disturbing here. To retreat from noise, they go
to quiet places, in the mountains, yet their minds are still very busy. You live in the
mountain, but your mind goes to the town again.

How would you suggest integrating Dharma into daily life, based on your own example?
Especially, how to overcome the excuse of having no time?

You have to make time. There is enough time. You work eight hours a day. Some people
then say: I have no time to practice. But instead they go to a bar, sit in front of television,
go to movies, or do other things. If you really want to practice, then you have to give up
those things. It is not necessary to cut yourself from life completely, but you must slowly
eliminate distraction. If you practice all the time, then your mind becomes tired. That is
not so good - you lose concentration. Then you can watch a little television, read some
books (not Dharma books), you can go for a walk in the forest or on the beach, or work
in the garden - you can do those sorts of things. Also, if you work in a job where you do
not need to talk, you can recite mantras while you are working. At work, or when I do my
house duties, I do a lot of prayers: sometimes I do mantras, sometimes I sing Tibetan
songs.

Do you think it is more difficult for women to maintain their practice routine because of
their traditional role in the house?

You cannot generalize. Some women, and men, live in traditional households. That does
not really matter. You have to make time. If you are not tired, then you have to take
your time. But I don't understand: here, in the West, everybody says when they are about
to get up, 'Oh, I'm so-o-o tired.' I don't know, it is really amazing. For example, my kids,
they hang around the whole weekend, and on Monday morning, when they have to get
up, they instantly say: 'I am so tired.' How come? They were asleep the whole night!
This is really amazing. I am never tired. Before we came here, we were living on a farm.
I worked in a mushroom plantation and had to pick mushrooms. We shipped 20 pound
boxes up and down. Then, when I came home, I had to cook, feed the kids - at that time
the children were very small, three to eight years old - and keep up with the household
duties. At that time I was in my thirties.

So you think 'to be tired' is a question of the mind?

I think so. I never had the thought of 'tiredness' in my mind at all. But in my late
forties I notice I do get tired. Sometimes at work I get tired: I do not want to lift my
feet onto the loom, but anyway I have to. Before my mid forties, I never felt tired.
And yet, although they are in their twenties, the kids say daily: 'I am so tired!' This
is truly amazing.

Why do you thnk it is like this?

I think it is because people say, 'I am tired.' Everybody says: 'I am tired.' Because they
are saying it all the time, they get used to saying it. Then, psychologically, the mind gets
used to it. That's why.

Traditionally a wife takes care of her husband's worldly responsibilities. How was it
for you?

For us it was the opposite. My husband was very supportive of my practice.

Why do Westerners respond so strongly to Tibetan Buddhism? Is it just confusion?

I don't know. This is something you should know. How can I know? Maybe it's out of
confusion, maybe not. Probably because it is so exciting. I notice Westerners like
exciting things. So when someting new comes along, then they are really excited.
Real practitioners do not get overexcited. It does not work that way. You need a long
time and you have to do it perfectly, not really excitingly. Something else in Western
minds is that they always want something different. For example, they think Hinduism
is better than Christianity, so they first become Hindus. Then, when they know
Hinduism a little bit, they think, 'That's enough, maybe it is not really what I am looking
for ... ', so then they think Buddhism is interesting. So they keep on looking.

What do you think of ordained Westerners living in the West?

A little bit difficult. If they are in a monastery, it is easier. But in case they have to live
among lay people, it is more difficult. Often people around here have no respect for
them. Some ordained people might get very upset if they are not respected, and then as
practitioners they would commit a mistake. Actually it does not really matter if you are
respected or not, because everything is only in your mind. You should not care because
finally you were the one who chose to get ordained. So I think it is a bit difficult here,
it might create obstacles, and the mind can get confused. It is not like in India, Nepal
or Tibet. These are different places.

Why do you think is sectarianism so widespread among Westerners?

Those people have no understanding, no knowledge. They should not do that. These are
people with a busy mind who do this. Busy and naughty. Sectarianism is not necessary,
because all traditions have the same foundation: they all come from the Buddha. Different
traditions were set up, but they all have the same meaning: to get enlightenment, to get
rid of the defilements and to purify the mind of poisons. The Buddha taught the three
vehicles, but the three of them talk about the same thing. Some are more detailed. Some
have more methods. Vajrayana has more methods to get enlightened on an easier,
quicker way. But the meaning and the focus is the same for all traditions and vehicles:
to get enlightenment and to get free from this cycle of suffering. So it really does not
matter. Some peoples' minds are too much attached to their own tradition, and therefore
say 'I am Gelugpa', or 'I am Sakyapa', 'I am Nyingmapa', or 'I am Kagyupa' very strongly.

     Teachers are another case, because they have to keep up their tradition, maintain
the lineage and pass it on - otherwise the lineage would die. In contrast to this, ordinary
practitioners do not need to be sectarian. Especially not Westerners. Also, in Western
tradition there is no need for Tibetan traditional things. Mixing is inevitable, but Western
students do not need to take over Tibetan culture. Westerners have their own culture.
Keep focused on meditation, that's all.

We have found that many westerners are confused and are searching for some kind of
guidance. They become involved with Buddhism and they become even more confused.

Yes, I noticed this too. I have encountered very confused Westerners involved with
Buddhism. They do not have a stable basic meditation on the mind; first your mind
has to be stabilized. Then you can study Mahayana, and only then you study the
Vajrayana. Many people are confused because they have no basic teachings, no
understanding, and no experience of meditation. They right away get empowerments
and jump into Vajrayana.

     In Vajrayana there are all kinds of different elements. Very simple things like the
five skulls on the head. So they think: 'What is that? First Buddhism talks about the
ten nonvirtuous deeds like killing, stealing, sexual misconduct, the four verbal misdeeds
and the three nonvirtues of the mind. If you should not kill, why is the deity wearing
the five skulls? Why is it earing the chain of fifty bleeding heads around his neck?'
These kinds of things may confuse unskilled practitioners. But the Vajrayana practitioner
knows, or reads in a book, that each symbol has a certain meaning. Bone ornaments
are symbols for impermanence.

     Practitioners, who know some Hinduism and come into Buddhism, may ask: 'Why is
Shiva underneath their deities?' In Buddhism this has another meaning. It symbolizes
ignorance, desire. But people cannot see that. Those who do not know about it may
become confused.

     Often people, who have never had contact with Buddhism and to whom I never have
taught, come to my place. Rarely they want to learn about meditation; instead they talk
about spiritual practice. Actually I do not know spiritual practice - sometimes I myself
am confused about what spiritual practice is. I often have to think about it.

     So, the first thing I tell them is to go to any spiritual teacher who gives talks and
to listen to them. 'Do not take any empowerments. Don't do anything serious, just
listen. Go to Hindu, Buddhist, Christian, Muslim teachers. In Buddhism there are
different traditions: Chinese, Japanese, Indian, different Tibetan traditions, whatever
tradition. Some time you will find your connection, your root guru, with whom you
have a teacher-student relationship.

     Some then ask: 'How do we find our root-guru?' Each human being has feelings,
don't they? You feel something. You feel comfortable, sometimes you feel close to
him or her, you feel you like him or her, however you see it. If you feel like that,
then you go on receiving teachings from that person. When you feel that this teacher
is ok, then you have to check his or her background. Especially if you go into Vajrayana
Buddhism you first have to check if this is the right teacher or not. If after all this
checking, you still think that this is the right teacher, then, after having received
empowerment, you have to think of him or her as your root-guru and as Vajradhara.
When you have this connection, you have to do whatever he or she says to practice.

     Then, I don't think you have to go around to different gurus and receive different
empowerments. You can go to many teachers and listen to their talks, but you do not
need to exercise and follow different practices. I think it is better to keep to one
teacher, and to one deity. For example, if we take one rock and start to make a hole
here and when we are almost through here, we change and try to make another hole
at one place. If we act like this, we will never finish. That is why you have to do
whatever your daily practice is, whatever deity and teacher you chose. Then there
will be no confusion and it will be very easy for your mind too.

     This is what I tell everybody at the beginning. So they might come back and say:
'I really liked you.' Then I tell them: 'First you do sitting meditation. Your mind is
very busy. Sit down and try to do shamatha meditation or breathing-exercise
meditation for a few months.' If after that they still want to go on, they can take
refuge, refuge vows, and I tell them to do the ngondro preliminary practices. That's
how I do it, and I keep it that way, because sometimes I think that Vajrayana came
to the West too soon. That's why people become so confused.

     Furthermore, a lot of Vajrayana materials have been published. Some people in the
West read those books, even though they do not know anything and have not had any
empowerments.

     Some aspects of Vajrayana and of Hinduism, like chakras, are similar. Then, people
are very funny, they compare Buddhism with Hinduism (she laughs). That's also why
people are confused.

Do these people have too little patience?

Well, somehow everybody is impatient. Tibetan people have no patience, and some
lamas neither. They can become very angry, and some become easily very mad;
some do not have patience at all.

Some lamas say that for Westerners it is better not to do retreats and instead to focus
on a daily practice.

It is important to do the practice of the deities whose initiations you have received
every day. Say you received the initiations of five deities, then you must do the five
practices every day without cessation. Retreat means that on top of this practice
you accumulate the mantras of a particular deity, three or four times a day. I guess
it is easier for the mind to do retreat once in a while. Here in the West the shortest
retreat is one week, but in Tibet the shortest was one month. Two things are different
here: the work situation and financial conditions. Here everybody has to support
himself. Nobody supports you. If both a wife and a husband are practitioners, then
one does a retreat and the other supports. But otherwise, as a single person, you
first have to fix your financial situation. Then you do a retreat, and when the retreat
is over the money is finished, so then you have to work again, and so forth. The
situation here is really a bit difficult.

Thank you very much for sharing your precious time.

Jetsun Kushab was interviewed for Cho-Yang by Alphonso and Gabriella Freeman.